Badfish and other evangelizing Christians, I notice you speak of God's standards and or them being perfect. But, God, the biblical God, never told me his standards. No god ever told me his/her/its/their standards. Instead of the God telling me his standards it is only humans speaking or writing in the name of a god (or gods) telling me the alleged standards of an alleged god (or gods). The Bible is not the word of the God. If there is a god who has standards for humans, that god should communicate it directly to all humans, so that there is no confusion as to what his/her/its/their standards are. Instead we have may humans and many religions promoting conflicting competing standards in the name of one or more alleged gods/spirits. Some religions, such as the JW religion, even have changed some of their standards (standards which they say are the standards of God) over time.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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The absolute insanity that religion breeds
by LoveUniHateExams inhowever good certain religious principles may or may not be, there seems to be complete insanity that only religion breeds.. a buddhist monk in thailand has apparently chopped off his own head to give himself 'good luck' in the afterlife.. .
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9488127/buddhist-monk-chops-head-guillotine-buddha.html.
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The absolute insanity that religion breeds
by LoveUniHateExams inhowever good certain religious principles may or may not be, there seems to be complete insanity that only religion breeds.. a buddhist monk in thailand has apparently chopped off his own head to give himself 'good luck' in the afterlife.. .
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9488127/buddhist-monk-chops-head-guillotine-buddha.html.
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Disillusioned JW
BluesBrother, what do you mean by "o/p"?
Badfish, I did not say I was "... never able ..." to believe. There was a time when I believed. Notice in my first post in this topic that I said "... when I believed ...". I was raised from infancy (2 Timothy 3:15) by my JW parents and my JW grandparents. When I was very young (such as younger than 8 years old) I probably even didn't doubt the existence of God, Christ, Satan, etc. At age 8 I enrolled in the JW's Theocratic Ministry School and gave my first talk (a #2 talk), a Bible reading (with comments written by my mother), to the congregation from the podium on the stage. [My mom told me how to pronounce the hard biblical names and other words.] I did that because I thought it was the right thing to do (due to the indoctrination I received from attending the Kingdom Hall and reading the WT doctrinal literature, including the NWT Bible).
When I was very young I believed that the Bible was true and Jehovah God's word. At that age I probably wasn't skeptical minded about what the Bible says about the supernatural. But at some point, probably around age 10 or so, I started having some doubts as I learned more about science and other things and as my critical thinking skills became more developed. When in high school (and/or maybe in 7th - 8th grade) I read stories about the ancient gods of the Greeks and of other pagans. I didn't believe in them (though I believed that according to the Bible and according to secular history that many ancient people believed they were real gods). My carnal (fleshly) mind did not feel condemned by them instead it told me they are just as unreal as Santa Claus and goblins and the tooth fairy. Studying stories about such gods in school (and seeing TV shows and movies on TV illustrating the myths about them) got me to thinking that the world I live in does not have supernatural activity (including gods appearing in person to humans and talking them) of such alleged gods, unlike the world of the ancient pagan stories. Starting around the age of 12 I noticed that my prayers to God, even for things I definitely thought he wanted me to improve on (according to the Bible and Wt doctrines) don't seem to work, but I kept praying anyway until about the time I became an atheist. The ineffectiveness of prayer led me to seriously doubt about Jehovah being real, since the Bible says in some verses that Jesus said anything people ask the father the father will do, even to the point of performing amazing miracles. The Bible also says that the father wants good things for his people, including granting requests for good things. [A verse says that just as a human father won't give his child a stone (or snake?) when the child asks for bread, likewise the heavenly father would act lovingly through his gifts to those who make requests to him.]
Does your carnal mind prevent you from believing in the ancient pagan gods (I'm not talking about graven images) as real supernatural gods (not merely idols or demons)? I guess you believed they were real demons. I disbelieve in the biblical god for the same reason I disbelieve in the ancient pagan gods, namely there is no evidence for their existence and no evidence for the actions attributed to them. Due to the types of descriptions about them, the evidence should exist if those gods exist. If the pagan gods were real the evidence should exist since the accounts about them describe them doing things which humans could see and hear and touch, and that even some of the gods (both male and female) had sex with some humans.
At about age 13 or 14 I began contemplating whether or not I should become baptized as a JW Christian. At that point I wasn't sure if the supernatural claims of the Bible were all true, including the accounts of Jesus having lived on Earth and having performed miracles. I also wondered if biological evolution was true instead of biblical old earth creationism (I thought young Earth literal 6 (or 7) solar day creation was disproved by science). I also wasn't entirely sure if the JW religion was the one true religion and specially chosen by God. I did research using WT literature (the NWT Bible and books which included quotes of scientists and historians, but I didn't know many of the quotes were misrepresented/mishandled and I didn't many arguments from opposing points of view) and as a result I concluded the Bible was true. I got baptized at age 15 and very soon began being assigned #4 talks which explained the Bible according to WT doctrines. Later while in college I was appointed a JW ministerial servant (the JWs equivalent of a deacon), without being told I would be made such and without being asked if I wanted to be such, and years later I gave some public sermon talks (of about 45 minutes in length) to the congregation. But from time to time as a baptized JW I had doubts about the JW religion being the true Christian religion and about God even being in existence. I especially had doubts about the demons being real, since I observed no demonic activity ever. -
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Sample Disassociation Letters
by Vanderhoven7 inwhat do you think of the following sample disassociation letter from 4jehovah.org ?.
if you are looking to disassociate from jehovah’s witnesses, here is a sample letter you can modify for your use:.
i have decided to disassociate myself from the ____________ congregation of jehovah’s witness.
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Disillusioned JW
But something might stop ones JW family from avoiding people (living outside of JW households) who choose to distance them selves from certain teachings and practices of the WT religion. It would be interesting to find out what has happened with those associated with the 4jehovah.org site who have used some version of their letter.
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Sample Disassociation Letters
by Vanderhoven7 inwhat do you think of the following sample disassociation letter from 4jehovah.org ?.
if you are looking to disassociate from jehovah’s witnesses, here is a sample letter you can modify for your use:.
i have decided to disassociate myself from the ____________ congregation of jehovah’s witness.
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Disillusioned JW
Anony Mous, the letter as stated at https://www.4jehovah.org/sample-disassociation-letter/, instead of as posted by Vanderhoven, specifically says the person is NOT disassociating from the congregation. On that site it says "I have decided not to disassociate myself from the ____________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witness." The letter is thus using the WT's own rules to try protect the JW/ex-JW from being removed from the congregation while at the same time going on record as disagreeing "... with certain actions, policies, teachings, and writings ..." of the incorporated entities of the headquarters of the religion as well as its Governing Body.
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Sample Disassociation Letters
by Vanderhoven7 inwhat do you think of the following sample disassociation letter from 4jehovah.org ?.
if you are looking to disassociate from jehovah’s witnesses, here is a sample letter you can modify for your use:.
i have decided to disassociate myself from the ____________ congregation of jehovah’s witness.
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Disillusioned JW
Vanderhoven7, I am glad you posted that document. I thought of posting it more than a week ago but I never got around to doing so. But, your post of the letter has a serious omission of one word (you probably unconsciously made the omission or maybe you had a different source for it).
Part of that document is interesting to me, because the letter doesn't actually claim the person is disassociating from the local congregation nor to claiming to be no longer being one of Jehovah's Witnesses. [Note that instead of the wording of your transcription of the letter, at https://www.4jehovah.org/sample-disassociation-letter/ the letter begins by saying "I have decided not to disassociate myself from the ____________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witness." Note it says the word "not".] Instead it says the person disagrees "... with certain actions, policies, teachings, and writings contained in publications produced, and oral teachings promulgated either individually or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., and the International Bible Students Association." But in saying the latter the elders would judge the person as being an apostate and probably subject to being disfellowshipped for such instead of being disassociated. If that is the case the letter probably would not work in preventing the person as being announced as "no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses". But it is interesting the letter makes a distinction between disassociating from the local congregation and disagreeing with the WT on some particulars, since it specifically says "I have decided not to disassociate myself from the ____________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witness." The word "Witness" should be replaced with the word "Witnesses".
The letter is also very significant since it says "This is also to notify the _____________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses that you, nor the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, including its over 100 other associated business corporations, have any authority over me whatsoever." That is important because the WT's handbook for the elders says that if the JW/ex-JW does not recognize the elders as having authority over the person and if the person no longer identifies as a JW the elders have permission to not take action on the person. In the letter, for clarity it would probably be good for "... that you, nor the Watchtower ..." to instead say "... that neither you, nor the Watchtower ...".
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What would happen to the Watchtower Org. if the recent UFO sightings were actually aliens ready to take over Earth
by pistolpete inthe past two weeks several ufo sightings.
navy and pentagon confirm sightings.
us military is worried because the technology being used to drive these air vehicles are showing no signs of any sort of jet fuel.
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Disillusioned JW
In some of the literature of the WT the WT said that some alleged sightings of UFOs (in the sense of apparent extraterrestrial space ships) and extraterrestrial non-supernatural aliens are deceptions of the demons.
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What would happen to the Watchtower Org. if the recent UFO sightings were actually aliens ready to take over Earth
by pistolpete inthe past two weeks several ufo sightings.
navy and pentagon confirm sightings.
us military is worried because the technology being used to drive these air vehicles are showing no signs of any sort of jet fuel.
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Disillusioned JW
Pyramids? Oh my goodness, does that mean the Stargate movie and the multiple Stargate TV series are basically true? Will we be able to defeat the Goa'uld? Ha ha.
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The absolute insanity that religion breeds
by LoveUniHateExams inhowever good certain religious principles may or may not be, there seems to be complete insanity that only religion breeds.. a buddhist monk in thailand has apparently chopped off his own head to give himself 'good luck' in the afterlife.. .
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9488127/buddhist-monk-chops-head-guillotine-buddha.html.
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Disillusioned JW
When I said "the gods of ancient others, and other pagan gods, nor ghosts, Santa Claus, and gremlins, and I do see ..." I meant to say "the gods of ancient peoples, and other pagan gods, nor ghosts, Santa Claus, and gremlins, and I do not see ...."
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38
The absolute insanity that religion breeds
by LoveUniHateExams inhowever good certain religious principles may or may not be, there seems to be complete insanity that only religion breeds.. a buddhist monk in thailand has apparently chopped off his own head to give himself 'good luck' in the afterlife.. .
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9488127/buddhist-monk-chops-head-guillotine-buddha.html.
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Disillusioned JW
truth_b_known, what are some "... studies showing that neuroscience is proving what Buddhism already realized..."? I am intrigued by a secularized version of Buddhism. I agree that Buddha did not intend his philosophy to become a religion, but the way many people practice it (including praying to devas and by including some Hindu ideas and worship practices) it is religious.
I have two books on Buddhism. They are: The Teaching of Buddha [by Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai (Buddhist Promoting Foundation, located in Japan)] and The Art of Happiness: A Handbook for Living (coauthored by the Dali Lama and by Howard C. Cutler, M.D.), but I haven't yet read much of the latter. I bought the latter because I want to feel happiness and joy much more often, instead of merely feeling neutral emotionally (or only very mildly happy) most of the time. Most of my free time I only feel content and or fascinated. It is hard for me feel certain positive emotions (such as happiness and joy) other than for very brief periods. I have been trying since as far as I can remember (since before age 8) to feel joy and happiness for more than a few minutes (or a half hour) in a day (tough on some days I do feel joy or happiness for longer, but that is rare), but so far nothing has really worked. I have put much effort into solving the problem, including studying many books and articles (and praying when I believed in the god). It is somewhat like I am an android in that respect or a Vulcan. My mind is very analytically oriented (even since before age 8).
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The absolute insanity that religion breeds
by LoveUniHateExams inhowever good certain religious principles may or may not be, there seems to be complete insanity that only religion breeds.. a buddhist monk in thailand has apparently chopped off his own head to give himself 'good luck' in the afterlife.. .
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9488127/buddhist-monk-chops-head-guillotine-buddha.html.
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Disillusioned JW
Badfish, but according to your version/definition of Christianity the god (God) does require works to become saved (earned). Are you familiar with Pascal's wager? You see some people are very skeptical about certain kinds of claims, including the claim of the existence of a god, including the god of the Bible. Furthermore Pascal was a Catholic and he thus had the Catholic concept of the Christian god. Pascal said one should wager that the god exists and that if one does not believe he exists then one must try very hard to believe and that performing religious rituals (Catholic rituals and type of worship?) over a long period of time will result in one gaining the belief. Doing such would be a lot work (even if only psychological work) and if successful would amount to earning salvation.
Believing in the existence of a heavenly Christ who is the Son of God (and even God to many Christians) and in God the Father, does not come easily to people who are naturally very skeptical of the existence of any spirit beings.
Oh, but I see you have a way out of that matter. You seem to be a Calvinist (at least in one regard) since you say "... if God hasn’t enabled you to believe, you will not believe". Many times when I believed it was hard for me to believe (I thought I never believed in Zeus, Aphrodite, the gods of ancient others, and other pagan gods, nor ghosts, Santa Claus, and gremlins, and I do see anything clearly supernatural ever happen, so maybe Jehovah God, Jesus Christ the Son of God, Satan the Devil, angels, and demons don't exist either. I also knew since grade school that most scientists consider evolution to be true and so I often wondered if it was true.) After I learned more science in regards to the evidence for evolution and the geology and discovered many serious problems with the Bible, I became convinced of evolution and I became an atheist.
Before I became a total atheist (positive atheist, not merely an agnostic) I prayed to Jehovah/Yahweh God and even to Jesus/Yeshua Christ telling them that if God exists please provide me with the evidence (for I wish to only believe based upon evidence and not upon credulity/faith) that you know would convince that you exist. I made appeal using the example in the Bible of the man who asked Jesus for help in his unbelief, so that the man's son would be healed. I also said that according to the Bible Thomas said he would not believe Jesus was was from the dead unless he saw Jesus alive with the wounds present. I also mentioned the example in the Bible of test Jehovah allowed Elijah to do regarding calling down fire from heaven onto an altar. I further gave the biblical example of Yahweh telling Moses he would have Moses perform miraculous signs (as evidence) to convince the Hebrew people that God was directing Moses (that was in response to Moses asking how could he convince the people). In each of the cases the Bible said God (or Jesus) granted the requests. Despite my prayers, I never received any evidence that convinced me that God exists. Instead I learned of scientific evidence that is strong proof against the existence of the God (any god), even of a deistic god - thus I became an outright positive/strong atheist.
If, hypothetically speaking, you are correct about God and salvation, then God doesn't want me to believe in him and he wants me to go to hell for my disbelief in him. That idea of divine hiddenness coming with such severe adverse condemnation is awful and hideous. [The idea of divine hiddenness is also an idea that scholarly philosophers consider to be a very strong argument/evidence for the nonexistence of a personal omni-type of God who loves humanity.] But then again, I think that if a god exists who did a number of the things the Bible says Yahweh did in pre-Christian times then such a god is evil and should be opposed despite the punishment it would bring. So if, hypothetically speaking, the god you believe in exists then maybe that is why he doesn't want me to believe in him.